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If "New Grandsire" means "Retrograde Grandsire" then perhaps that could be the standard, and Polebrook (I lost a peal there once) should become New Cotterstock ( or vice versa, recognising that [ as with compositions]they are both the same method)?</div>
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John David</div>
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Guernsey</div>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000" style="font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> ringing-theory <ringing-theory-bounces@bellringers.org> on behalf of ringing-theory-request@bellringers.org <ringing-theory-request@bellringers.org><br>
<b>Sent:</b> 25 August 2020 11:00<br>
<b>To:</b> ringing-theory@bellringers.org <ringing-theory@bellringers.org><br>
<b>Subject:</b> ringing-theory Digest, Vol 186, Issue 5</font>
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Today's Topics:<br>
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1. Terminology question (Joe Norton)<br>
2. Re: Terminology question (Andrew Johnson)<br>
3. Re: Terminology question (Joe Norton)<br>
<br>
<br>
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<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2020 18:39:46 +0100<br>
From: Joe Norton <super.joey.norton@gmail.com><br>
To: ringing-theory@bellringers.org<br>
Subject: [r-t] Terminology question<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<CAMGUTJJHF7hSTVTG-Ozjv0ybv7GMC_=J9zxgOJ5VKbz0VhvX+Q@mail.gmail.com><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
I may be about to ask a stupid question or two, but please humour me...<br>
<br>
Given some block, A. A is some method or block or other ordered set of<br>
changes on a given number of bells. It could be anything.<br>
<br>
If we reflect A about its midpoint (front to back) then the block produced<br>
is called "Reverse A". I think I'm still on firm ground.<br>
<br>
First question:<br>
If we make "Backwards A", as in last change first and first change last<br>
etc, what is that called as an operation? I'm assuming it's not called<br>
reversal, since that is the process of producing "Reverse A" as above.<br>
<br>
Second question:<br>
In terms of naming, should A and "Backwards A" be related in any way? This<br>
does not usually become an issue seeing as the vast majority of common<br>
methods are palindromic. Methods like Polebrook Bob Doubles<br>
(5.1.5.3.125.3.125.1.5.125) and Cotterstock Bob Doubles<br>
(5.1.125.3.125.3.5.1.5.125) would suggest not but I wondered if there have<br>
been any naming rules since then.<br>
<br>
Thank you and sorry for asking daft questions!<br>
<br>
Joe.<br>
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Message: 2<br>
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2020 21:09:51 +0100<br>
From: Andrew Johnson <andrew_johnson@uk.ibm.com><br>
To: ringing-theory@bellringers.org<br>
Subject: Re: [r-t] Terminology question<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<OF5ED6E67B.DD79A92F-ON802585CE.006DC72B-802585CE.006EC42C@notes.na.collabserv.com><br>
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<br>
> From: Joe Norton <br>
> I may be about to ask a stupid question or two, but please humour me...<br>
> <br>
> Given some block, A. A is some method or block or other ordered set <br>
> of changes on a given number of bells. It could be anything.<br>
> <br>
> If we reflect A about its midpoint (front to back) then the block <br>
> produced is called "Reverse A". I think I'm still on firm ground.<br>
> <br>
> First question:<br>
> If we make "Backwards A", as in last change first and first change <br>
> last etc, what is that called as an operation? I'm assuming it's not<br>
> called reversal, since that is the process of producing "Reverse A" as <br>
above.<br>
> <br>
> Second question:<br>
> In terms of naming, should A and "Backwards A" be related in any <br>
> way? This does not usually become an issue seeing as the vast <br>
> majority of common methods are palindromic. Methods like Polebrook <br>
> Bob Doubles (5.1.5.3.125.3.125.1.5.125) and Cotterstock Bob Doubles <br>
> (5.1.125.3.125.3.5.1.5.125) would suggest not but I wondered if <br>
> there have been any naming rules since then.<br>
> <br>
> Thank you and sorry for asking daft questions!<br>
> <br>
> Joe._____<br>
See Martin Bright's paper about symmetries:<br>
<a href="http://www.boojum.org.uk/ringing/symmetry.pdf">http://www.boojum.org.uk/ringing/symmetry.pdf</a><br>
using 'vertical reflection' and<br>
<a href="https://cccbr.github.io/method_ringing_framework/classification.html#methodsymmetry">https://cccbr.github.io/method_ringing_framework/classification.html#methodsymmetry</a><br>
using 'read backwards'.<br>
<br>
Sometimes 'reverse' is used to mean going backwards, but perhaps for <br>
compositions where it is clear that the method is staying the same, <br>
but the order of the calls is reversed.<br>
<br>
Perhaps 'retrograde' could also be considered as a term.<br>
<br>
Andrew Johnson<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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Unless stated otherwise above:<br>
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741598. <br>
Registered office: PO Box 41, North Harbour, Portsmouth, Hampshire PO6 3AU<br>
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------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 3<br>
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 10:42:56 +0100<br>
From: Joe Norton <super.joey.norton@gmail.com><br>
To: ringing-theory@bellringers.org<br>
Subject: Re: [r-t] Terminology question<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<CAMGUTJK1CEQEZXFVgugL01TjPxFymm9F9ECUznirhJeq=M6Kgg@mail.gmail.com><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
Ah ha! Thank you, very useful.<br>
<br>
On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 at 21:11, Andrew Johnson <andrew_johnson@uk.ibm.com><br>
wrote:<br>
<br>
> > From: Joe Norton<br>
> > I may be about to ask a stupid question or two, but please humour me...<br>
> ><br>
> > Given some block, A. A is some method or block or other ordered set<br>
> > of changes on a given number of bells. It could be anything.<br>
> ><br>
> > If we reflect A about its midpoint (front to back) then the block<br>
> > produced is called "Reverse A". I think I'm still on firm ground.<br>
> ><br>
> > First question:<br>
> > If we make "Backwards A", as in last change first and first change<br>
> > last etc, what is that called as an operation? I'm assuming it's not<br>
> > called reversal, since that is the process of producing "Reverse A" as<br>
> above.<br>
> ><br>
> > Second question:<br>
> > In terms of naming, should A and "Backwards A" be related in any<br>
> > way? This does not usually become an issue seeing as the vast<br>
> > majority of common methods are palindromic. Methods like Polebrook<br>
> > Bob Doubles (5.1.5.3.125.3.125.1.5.125) and Cotterstock Bob Doubles<br>
> > (5.1.125.3.125.3.5.1.5.125) would suggest not but I wondered if<br>
> > there have been any naming rules since then.<br>
> ><br>
> > Thank you and sorry for asking daft questions!<br>
> ><br>
> > Joe._____<br>
> See Martin Bright's paper about symmetries:<br>
> <a href="http://www.boojum.org.uk/ringing/symmetry.pdf">http://www.boojum.org.uk/ringing/symmetry.pdf</a><br>
> using 'vertical reflection' and<br>
><br>
> <a href="https://cccbr.github.io/method_ringing_framework/classification.html#methodsymmetry">
https://cccbr.github.io/method_ringing_framework/classification.html#methodsymmetry</a><br>
> using 'read backwards'.<br>
><br>
> Sometimes 'reverse' is used to mean going backwards, but perhaps for<br>
> compositions where it is clear that the method is staying the same,<br>
> but the order of the calls is reversed.<br>
><br>
> Perhaps 'retrograde' could also be considered as a term.<br>
><br>
> Andrew Johnson<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Unless stated otherwise above:<br>
> IBM United Kingdom Limited - Registered in England and Wales with number<br>
> 741598.<br>
> Registered office: PO Box 41, North Harbour, Portsmouth, Hampshire PO6 3AU<br>
><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> ringing-theory mailing list<br>
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